I’m not even mad that people still throw around the “church and state” phrase without knowing where it comes from. (Go ahead: point to a law that says religion can’t influence laws. Go ahead.)
But, I’ll admit, it bugs me when people think their views on gay marriage and abortion don’t count as “religious,” just because they don’t believe in God.
Too many ignorant Americans actually believe there is such thing as a law that is non-religious.
There isn’t.
Because their opinion that there’s nothing wrong with same-sex marriage and abortion come from their moral beliefs, too…
Those opinions aren’t automatically logical and scientific and objective, just because you don’t believe in God.
All laws are about figuring out what’s right vs. what’s wrong, and that will always be a religious question.
So, please don’t share this meme, or mindlessly utter the phrase “separation of church and state,” anymore. Please?
I get it. You don’t understand laws, and you’ve never read the Constitution (or anything longer than this blog post), and you think that when you quote your gay friend who had an abortion it makes your opinion more valuable than someone who quotes the Bible.
I understand.
But, you look silly, because your sense of morality comes from the religion of your culture, too.
Don’t believe me?
Go ahead and give me a non-religious reason to make gay marriage legal. Give me one non-religious reason to allow you to end the life of a healthy fetus.
Go ahead.
Cultures at War 
Hello again mrsmcmommy, I do not believe that all the laws and morals are based on the Christian or any other religious doctrine and it is delusional to suggest this is true.
Primitive man, American Indians, NZ Maori, Aboriginal peoples and many other groups survived thousands of years without Christianity or any modern religion having any cultural effect whatsoever.
Cultural anthropologists have recognized for many years how all human societies have comparable basic customs of moral conduct. The means of mental activity and the very configuration of the processes of human thought and behaviour are identical in both primitive and civilized man. From the basic evolutionary perspective, this means that human morality is very much older and will easily pre-date any religion that exists today.
Just because someone thinks abortion is wrong does not make them sponsors for religious doctrine, it just has them simply deciding what they personally feel is right. These same people may also believe in euthanasia and assisted suicide but this does not make them atheist devils.
Gay marriage should be legal because it does not impinge upon the rights and freedoms of anyone else, plus science has begun to identify the biological, cultural and phycological reasons of sexual orientation. The woman’s life during birth is in danger or the rape of a minor constitute as good non-religious reasons for abortion. Is that what you were asking for?
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Skly,
All law has good as its objective.
But what is good?
Is good different for the indigenous savage or the civilized man?
For good to be good, it must be good for all men.
The Christians, over thousands of years have done the greatest job in translating the good into a lattice that supports all of modern civilization.
And don’t doubt for a second how much the Native American loves and craves the benefits of Christian Western Civilization just like every other human being on the planet.
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I’m not surprised an Atheist disagrees with me that all laws and morals are based on some sort of religion… But, they are. The fact that morality is very old proves my point, not yours. Religion has been part of us for so long, we take it for granted…
If a small-minded person thinks that you have to find a passage in a Holy Book for an opinion or value to be religious, then that’s their problem.
But, no, you did not meet the challenge.
Your belief that rights/freedom are important–or that a minor child’s rape overrides the fetal child’s human worth–are part of your cultural religion.
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Laws are made for the benefits of mankind. A law that causes grief, pain or death to individuals obviously is on face value not a good law for the savages or civilised man. The laws such as human sacrifice, throwing homosexuals off buildings and the process of exposing witches to be burnt at the stake are obviously driven by individuals with either another political agenda or some sort of superstitious beliefs.
Laws such as these were thought to be good laws at the time. Death by hanging was also thought to be a good law to deter murderers, however all these examples were or are supported by many of the people thinking this was the way forward and would benefit their society through spiritual and\or social means.
Most of these stupid laws were made by politicians who were advised by religious leaders, even Christians, therefore rather than try and hijack every good law as a Christian law you should be more humiliated in recognising the bad laws that were made in the name of your God.
I agree that religion has been a part of human life since the time man first walked the earth. It is obvious man had developed the skill and ethical sense to know when and when not to kill another Homo erectus when they met because they could never have procreated and survived.
From here on, man must have developed social skills as he raised his offspring, and would have also developed a belief in gods to make some sense of the world they could not understand. Some gods and the ideology would have had good and bad aspects just as todays religions, but to suggest any religion is responsible solely for incorporating the good aspects into a society without the bad is just simply untrue.
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You only think the old religious laws are stupid because you’ve been brainwashed by a different type of religion.
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“Gay marriage should be legal because it does not impinge upon the rights and freedoms of anyone else”—-sklyjd
obviously you have not been pay attention to how this “legal node to sexual liberty” has crept into everything. i fear that it will not stop creeping but i know that folks hate it when folks like me bring up the “slippery slope”
“plus science has begun to identify the biological, cultural and phycological reasons of sexual orientation” —ibid..
you know that you are going to be ask to site your work.
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More importantly, it’s not true that “science identified…” ANYTHING. That makes no sense, because science can’t think or interpret and speak (although we say “science says” all the time.) It’s actually SCIENTISTS who do those things.
So, the question becomes, why should I let (certain) scientists tell me what’s right and wrong–and how is that different from centuries ago, when priests and clergy did all the reading and thinking on behalf of the rest of society?
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From what you have written it is clear you would scoff at anything to do with evolutionary traits or anything scientific that may or may not be the answer to sexual behaviours, and if you were really interested you could google the same stuff I can.
And does sexual liberty between consenting couples and gay marriage disrupt your freedom and rights?
The “slippery slope” you call it has always been there. The difference was it was hidden from normal everyday life and was never exposed. The cover up of paedophilia in the priesthoods and the celebrities having their past injustices dragged through the courts just shows to what extent sexual orientation and acts of perversion have been active over the history of human existence.
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You’re clearly not understanding my point. I haven’t “scoffed” at evolutionary traits. Just because a trait has evolved doesn’t mean it’s the RIGHT way to do things.
Richard Dawkins himself said we think rape is wrong because of “arbitrary” factors. He said our sense of morality is as random as the fact that we have five fingers instead of six. We just as easily could have evolved to be a species of hatred and violence (and we very well may still be evolving that way)–in which case, we will go extinct.
It’s only religion which tells us we SHOULD be kind to our neighbor, regardless of how we feel. Whether you call your religion “Christianity” or “Humanism” or something else. It’s all based on religion.
I’m annoyed by the number of Atheists who are too prideful and anti-religion to grasp this concept. You’re religious, too. (And you’ve probably been influenced mostly by Christianty, as Silence said.)
Sorry that bothers you. 🙂
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it is interesting that friends who don’t want to believe in God will always pick some of the greatest evidences of sinful behavior to prove that there is “no God”. have you ever considered that you hate evil because you really KNOW there is really good. We recognize bad because we know of good. Wether you admit it or not.
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I do not pick anything like sinful behaviour to prove anything about something that has no evidence of existing. I am really just trying to explain what is reality and what is happening today.
It is so simple. There is good and bad and humans as animals have evolved with an inherent basic primitive understanding of these concepts as a survival skill or the human race would have died out. Just as animals regulate territory with the fighting skills they evolved with, man is no different.
The laws and morals that this blog is about are enhanced in human culture by upbringing and influences in life and many of these morals may stem back in time to many different religious beliefs, however this does not provide any proof that any gods exist or all laws made by man are inherently religious.
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There you have it, Steve.
There is good and bad.
People just understand good/bad.
But it’s just not religious.
It isn’t. 🙂
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It always makes me laugh when people bring up “separation of church and state” and it’s clear they have no idea of the origin of the phrase or how it was being used. Or better yet when they think it’s somewhere in the Constitution.
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The person I know who shared this particular meme probably doesn’t even know what the “Constitution” is.
Seriously.
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The Australian Constitution was drafted at a series of constitutional conventions held in the 1890s. It was passed by the British Parliament as part of the Commonwealth of Australia Constitution Act 1900 and took effect on 1 January 1901.
Seriously:)
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Wonderful.
New challenge for sklyjd, before attempting to tackle the challenge from the post: first, summarize in your own words what you think the post was about.
You can’t argue against someone if you don’t know what they’re saying in the first place.
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“You only think the old religious laws are stupid because you’ve been brainwashed by a different type of religion.”
You seriously believe this?
You think all the old religious laws were not stupid so you must think they are reasonable. Do you believe all the laws from the Bible should be implemented just as the Sharia laws are into Middle East countries by the Islamic faith? You do realise you will have the same problems but ancient punishments apply.
What religion am I brainwashed into? You throw rubbish at me to change the subject. Please check the definition of “atheist” and “religion” on Google.
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I’ve heard the Atheist mantra about having “disbeliefs” rather than “beliefs” a hundred times. You might call it the Atheist Hymn.
One more chance: summarize, in your own words, what you think I was saying in this post, or I’m going to be done with you. I’ll have no choice but to conclude this is over your head.
(Hint: if your summary is something like, “You think all the Western laws should be implemented from the Bible, like Sharia law in the Middle East” I will laugh at you. That’s not what I said at all.)
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“All Laws Are Religious”
It is clear what this post is about. I will answer some comments.
“But, I’ll admit, it bugs me when people think their views on gay marriage and abortion don’t count as “religious,” just because they don’t believe in God.”
In my opinion this point about it all been down to religion to be the underlying influence to their views is not always true. I do not fully support abortion, and you know I do not believe in God.
“Too many ignorant Americans actually believe there is such thing as a law that is non-religious.”
Good luck with that, banning slavery was called anti-Christian back in those days and stoning people I think may not be supported by religious scriptures.
“All laws are about figuring out what’s right vs. what’s wrong, and that will always be a religious question.”
Only asked by the religious. Most other people know from their own conscience what is right and wrong because we evolved with a brain that was crammed full of survival skills that included our ability to think and decide from the evidence we have what is best for us.
“But, you look silly, because your sense of morality comes from the religion of your culture, too.”
Admittingly, all religions from day one have a large influence on culture and morality. However not always good morality comes from religion as I have pointed out and it has taken non-religious doctrine to eliminate it.
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Ideas of “good” and “bad” are just cultural opinions.
Your evolved brain tells you that our laws are more correct and good now than they used to be. But our ancestors’ evolved brains were telling them that THEIR laws were correct and good back then.
All of those laws are just different opinions at different times. Survival isn’t better than extinction. It’s just different.
If you keep insisting that having science and the goal of survival are “good” or “right,” it is because you accept what has been fed to you by society. Society may try to promote a GODLESS religion, but it’s still opinions and traditions and trying to build meaning out of meaninglessness.
That’s my point. All laws are built around religious beliefs, even when the person supporting those laws says, “Oh, I don’t believe in God! I just believe in love and tolerance and survival!”
Okay, buddy. That’s religion.
Anyway, go ahead and leave another comment demonstrating you don’t understand this concept. However, I’ll not be replying again. 🙂
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OK I agree, and I have already said that at the time bad laws were in place they were believed to be good laws because it suited them at the time.
How can you think for one minute survival is not better than extinction? Our whole biological and social systems from the smallest living cells, plant life, elephants and the complex human system is orientated solely around survival. Unless a microorganism had the desire and tendency to survive and reproduce they would not survive and reproduce and therefore they would die out and no life would exist today. Extinction is not just different from survival it is part of survival. Natural selection is about organisms that are better adapted to their environment than others that may eventually die out.
The desire to stay alive is an instinctive one, built into the psyche of all organism and our physical make-up is designed to make us fitter to survive and reproduce where a species with no control of its future survival dies out rather quickly.
Society did not feed me this survival mode, it is the natural default status of all living things because who wants to die? Of course, I could become indoctrinated to believe life is not important and this still happens today.
Therefore, laws from any religious or non-religious origin may contribute positively or negatively to the survival of humans, but the basic human emotions of love and tolerance you mention, including hate, jealousy, anger etc. are survival skills that all humans inherently have.
Godless religions are new to me as religion is belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power in the form of god or gods, and I am not aware of these new super powered non-gods that you suggest. I was not fed atheism nor has it become my life.
If you feel better thinking religion is the saviour of mankind fair enough, but to be more fair and accurate, religions have a strong influence in some countries on the issues of laws and morals and has shown to have equally good and bad results. OK buddy😊
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Oh, I don’t BELIEVE that survival isn’t better than extinction. I just DISBELIEVE that it is…
And I would appreciate if you and other Atheists would stop jamming your laws down everybody’s throat without the foggiest idea that you’re the new Church with the new Authoritarian problem, telling everybody else what’s the right and wrong way to think and behave. (Because “science”!)
“If you think religion is the saviour of mankind…” Nope. Not what I said at all, buddy. It’s sad when Atheists don’t know how to think, unless they’re arguing with a stereotypical, Bible-thumping, fundamentalist. YOU brought up Christianity and YOU assumed I believe that the Bible ought to be used to make government laws, because YOU have no idea what’s going on.
LOL!
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“Oh, I don’t BELIEVE that survival isn’t better than extinction. I just DISBELIEVE that it is…”
If that is not a magnificent riddle, I do not know what is. I think that you are more confused than I am.
Atheists jam laws down throats. Give me some examples, but if you are complaining about removal of religious icons from public property and the like, it is about time the domination
of the Christian doctrine was removed and the laws upheld.
If you have an issue with atheists due to science, well you must know you cannot win those arguments and I understand your frustration. You are correct that atheists do not know how to think or what is going on when it comes to trying to work out what religious faith the theist is and the many hundreds of idiosyncratic and oddball beliefs the theist has that permeate throughout each collection of designer churches. What configuration are you? LOL!
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It was a joke, Sklyjd. My first sentence was a joke, to poke fun at the Atheists who play the “I-Don’t-Believe-Anything” game.
This is over your head. Feel free to read the comment section here, for more on the idea that morality is subjective.
https://branyancomedy.wordpress.com/2017/03/03/the-good-is-gone-anyway/
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Over on my dad’s blog, both Sirius Bizinus and John Zande are struggling to grasp this as well. They want to have their opinions about right and wrong taken seriously, even though they’re subjective! They want morality, without religion.
But it won’t work until they admit they’re religious and embrace it.
https://branyancomedy.wordpress.com/2017/02/23/lets-enslave-the-heathen/comment-page-1/#comment-16707
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One non-religious reason for gay marriage: To give an estimated 5-10 % of the population the possibility to be as happy and fulfilled as straight people (if they choose to get married).
One non-religious reason for abortion: To give women the chance to decide if the want to carry out a child. To give them the choice if they want a mistake/regret/accident leading the path for their future or not.
It’s as simple as that but I believe that you just won’t get it. Also: People like me, who say things like ‘separation of church and state’ might be aware that many law systems (NOT all) stem from religion. But we think that going forward religion shouldn’t have any say in legal matters anymore.
Please grow up and broaden your horizon a little bit.
Btw I will have a follow-up for this article on my blog soon.
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Thanks for commenting!
Are you assuming that happiness and freedom of choice are good and right?…
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Yes of course! Freedom of choice is absolutely necessary. Everyone deserves to live the life they want. There is no one who should have a say in someone else’s life. I recently finished my article about this. It’s a response to you – you may wanna read it.
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I read it already.
Your belief that people “deserve” one thing or another…where does that come from?
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Please tell me where you’ve read that in my blog post in the comment section. I dont know what you’re talking about.
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I’m not commenting on your blog. Are you trolling for commenters or interested in a discussion?
I’m asking you questions about what you believe and where those beliefs come from…
You said, “No one should have a say in someone else’s life.” Where did you get that idea?
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Lol it doesn’t make any sense to talk about my blog post in your comment section but as you wish. Where I got that idea? I don’t really understand the question. Why should it be any other way?? It is my life, I can do whatever I want with it
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That’s a religious idea… Freedom and the sanctity of personal autonomy don’t come from science.
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That’s simply your opinion. You can state that literally everything comes from religion even if it doesn’t. And I don’t think you are such a fool that you think you can trick anyone in thinking freedom of choice is a religious idea? lol Just think abou e.g. Christian restrictions on life.
Well, I’m done. As I stated you can’t argue with religion. If you wanna talk to me you know where to find me.
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Claiming all laws come from religion is exactly what I did! 🙂 So I’m glad you’re okay with that.
If you figure out what my post is about and you have a non-religious reason for legalizing abortion and gay marriage, you know there to find me.
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Already commented on all of that and ‘gave’ you non religious reasons. I really wonder if you read your comments.
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Saying “everyone deserves X” and “no one should do Y” isn’t a reason. It’s your opinion.
Your heart tells you certain things are right and wrong. Your religion tells you to follow said heart. I call that my conscience. But maybe your religion calls it something else.
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Pingback: The problem with gay marriage – New Honesty
Hey Amanda. Where has your Dad’s blog gone? I seem to have lost it.
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Hi, Wally!
It’s attached to his new website now!
Here’s a direct link: http://www.johnbranyan.com/media/blog/
If you “follow” the blog, you should still get notifications in your reader whenever he posts. You can sign up for the email list, too. 🙂
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Thanks a bunch Amanda!
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